Is Orthodox Judaism right for us? 4 challenges
- Egalitarianism
I've said it before and I'll say it again: for me, it's not the mechitzah (more examples, including a balcony version, here) that's the problem, it's everything that doesn't go with it. By the time my husband met me, I was already wearing a tallit/prayer shawl, though I hadn't advanced to wearing tefillin yet. I'm very used to, and enjoy, being counted in a minyan, leading services (including davar sheh-bi-k'dushah, those sections for which a minyan is required), having aliyot, leining (chanting the Torah/Bible reading from the scroll), chanting haftarot (additional readings, usually from the prophets). Even those Orthodox synagogues that have Women's Tefillah Groups don't usually have them more than once a month, and Partnership Minyanim are not available in every neighborhood.
For the record, my husband is also an egalitarian, and is downright offended by the prayer thanking G-d for not having made him a woman.
- Prax (practice)
It's a bit overwhelming to contemplate all the major and minor changes we'd have to make in our lives to become Shomrei Mitzvot, Observers of the Commandments. We'd both need to study the laws of Shabbat/Sabbath and kashrut/dietary laws just to figure out what we don't know. It's a major commitment. Are we really ready to comply with every detail concerning how to conduct our daily lives halachicly? Do we really want to have to worry about the halachic status of a knife with which we've cut an onion, or what we are and aren't allowed to carry within an eruv?
- Dox (belief)
Neither of us believes in Torah MiSinai, that G-d gave Moshe/Moses the entire so-called Five Books of Moses (Genesis-Deuteronomy) on Mount Sinai. We're both supporters of the Documentary Hypothesis, believing that the Torah was cobbled together from various pre-existing "texts" (written and/or oral).
My views were always anathema to our Orthodox former rabbi because I insisted on distinguishing between Torah sheh-Bi-ch'tav (the Written Law/Bible) and Torah sheh-B'Al Peh (the Oral Law), holding fast to the notion that the Mishnah and Gemara were the work of men (yes, males) rather than their transcripts of what G-d had told Moshes on Sinai. And it irks me no end when people treat midrashim (rabbinic legends and interpretations explaining gaps and difficult passages in the Torah) as if they were written in the Torah itself, not distinguishing between one and the other.
Neither of us believes in miracles that can't be explained by natural phenomena. For example, we're both convinced by the theory that the miracles that occurred at the time of Yitziat Mitzrayim/the Exodus from Egypt were the results of a massive volcanic eruption on the island of Thera/Santorini in the Mediterranean--we read "Exodus: The True Story Behind the Biblical Account," by Ian Wilson, which promulgated this theory, and it makes sense to both of us. That's not to say that G-d couldn't have caused this eruption and/or its timing, but it is to say that the Reed Sea didn't part just because G-d told Moshe to hold his staff over it.
And my husband would love to study cross-cultural influences on Judaism once he retires and has the spare time. He's always been fascinated by the Enuma Elish, the Gilgamesh Epic, and the Code of Hammurabi, for example, and, in his younger days, often expressed an interest in studying Akkadian and Ugaritic so that he could read some of these ancient texts in the original.
One of my husband's chief concerns is that, while he's very interested in studying traditional divrei kodesh/sacred texts, and would love to do some serious learning once he retires, he also wishes to be free to express his opinions. That's a concern of mine, as well. I understand that the rabbis loved to "explain away" problems in the text, and I find their midrashim and other explanatory literature very interesting, if for no other reason than that these explanations demonstrate clearly what the rabbis thought was missing or troubling. But neither of us would particularly appreciate having our own opinions considered unnacceptable simply because they're not necessarily traditional. We don't want to feel that the community that we choose won't accept us unless we keep our opinions to ourselves.
- As the old saying goes, "It takes two to tango."
"Mixed marriages, of sorts" present some very real challenges, and sometimes simple tolerance isn't enough. A "mutual non-interference ageement" doesn't work in the Orthodox community--for example, unless both of you are willingly to be completely Shomer Shabbat/Sabbath-Observant, Orthodox Jews won't eat in your home because they won't trust your kashrut. Unless we both agree to make the switch, it won't happen.
posted by Shira Salamone at 11:16 PM
28 Comments:
I keep hearing about these Jews that don't eat in people's houses, but I never seem to meet them. My Conservative MIL talks about them a lot. The Community Rabbi might not eat in people's houses, not out of lack of trust, but to avoid needing to turn down invites from people whose Kashrut they don't trust.
There were people in our community that were openly NOT really Kosher... they got take-out when they had company over.
Plenty of people here with one observant spouse and not the other... Seriously, the "not eat in their houses" line is really a conservative thing... because if I make a joke referencing that, the BTs usually chuckle, and the FFBs look like deers caught in headlights.
You fit in fine on the left wing of Modern Orthodoxy, and you're to the right of many people in my community in terms of your practices. The Dox/Prax is an academic distinction... nobody talks about beliefs... Orthodoxy isn't real big on them...
Re: Jews that don't eat in people's houses--they exist (I'm related to some of them). A problem if people are publicly violating Shabbat and kashrut and insisting that you can trust their kashrut (and they refuse to get takeout for guests). I think it's community dependent.
Agreed that nobody cares about beliefs (at least in my community in NYC. I don't think you're moving to Boro Park anytime soon). I've cited the Journal of Biblical Literature and Nachum Sarna's work (a completely academic journal) when I was talking Torah in shul (maybe even in a shiur) and nobody batted an eyelid.
Rivkayael,
I believe that there are people that do that, I just don't encounter them. Then again, if people were my friends and wouldn't eat in my house, I'd expect polite blow-offs, not insults, so I just wouldn't encounter it.
But yeah, very few "beliefs" are actually outside the pale, and nobody really cares about. Given the bizarre behavior that seems acceptable, and the mistreatment of people slightly different, I'm pretty sure that most of the Orthodox community is pretty agnostic.... they might not say it, but they certainly act like they actually believe Gd is watching them.
Shira,
You don't need to believe ("dox") or practice evertything in order to affiliate with an Orthodox shul.
Personally, I think that the Sefardi model is best: Everyone goes to an Orhtodox (for lack of a better word) shul regardless of their level of observance or theology. Just like many Catholics who have doubts/issues about Catholic theology, but they don't go the Protestant church. I think that it was a big mistake that American Jews flocked to the basically made up out of thin air Reform and Conservative movmements. The Sephardim never did this to any great degree and it is reflected in their retention rate and low intermarriage. I will admit that there are unfortunately many O shuls that are not welcoming to people who are not 100% O, but I'm sure there are plenty old school "big tent" shuls in the greater NY and NJ area. BTW, I am Orthodox, but even before I was I almost exclusively attended O shuls.
I certainly know many people who don't eat at some people's houses. Some are very polite about it, others less so.
I think most people here are missing the point about belief. It is true, the O community doesn't talk much about belief. That is one reason that estimates of the percentage of the Orthodox community that is also Orthprax vary so widely. But as I understand it, Shira wants to be able to talk about belief, and to express views that are explicitly outside the official Orthodox pale. That is much harder to pull off.
I am curious what Shira means by 'switching affiliations'. Do you just mean switching membership in shuls, or do you think of this as having to accept an entirely different mimetic package, or what?
Anon., I guess I'm just too Ashkenazi--and/or too much of a stickler for consistency--to be entirely comfortable joining an Orthodox synagogue without being Orthodox (at least terms of in practice, if not in belief).
Larry, you said, "It is true, the O community doesn't talk much about belief. That is one reason that estimates of the percentage of the Orthodox community that is also Orthprax vary so widely. But as I understand it, Shira wants to be able to talk about belief, and to express views that are explicitly outside the official Orthodox pale."
Yes.
"That is much harder to pull off."
That's one of our important issues. Can we discuss our beliefs openly--in as respectful a manner as possible--and not be deemed outside the pale of the Orthodox community?
"Do you just mean switching membership in shuls, or do you think of this as having to accept an entirely different mimetic package,"
At the very least, I would expect us to make a good-faith effort to observe Judaism in accordance with Orthodox practices. That said, I don't see us being completely consistent. Our kashrut practices involving get-togethers with friends and family will probably not be exactly in accordance with the laws of kashrut, as previously stated, and we intend to continue doing partner dances when we go folk-dancing. There's also the rather interesting question of whether I really must cover my hair in public at all times, which I really don't want to do. (See my comment here.) But we'll be making a sincere attempt to be Shomrei Shabbat/Sabbath-observant, to keep a kosher kitchen in accordance with an Orthodox interpretation of the laws of kashrut (which means, among other things that we'll probably have to replace at least some of our dishes, and we'll have to tovel *all* of our cooking and eating equipment), and to eat in kosher restaurants when we're in control of the situation and when they're available. (We haven't yet decided what we'll do about kashrut when traveling.)
I know (different) people well integrated within their Orthodox communities who
1) Had mixed dancing at their wedding in 2008. (Few members of their community present, and their rabbi had left when it started)
2) Cover their heads and not all of their hair.
3) Don't cover their hair at all outside of shul.
4) Eat salads out in non-kosher restaurants.
5) Cook milk and meat uncovered in the same oven, just not simultaneously.
6) Have never toiveled anything. (They are elderly FFBs who regard toiveling as part of the new culture of chumrah. Things might be different for new BTs.)
I know (different) people well integrated within their Orthodox communities who
. . .
3) Don't cover their hair at all outside of shul.
That'll be me.
4) Eat salads out in non-kosher restaurants.
I could live with that, as an alternative to "having a previous engagement" and nursing a glass of iced tea whenever invited to eat out in a non-kosher place, or when in a place in which kosher food is not readily available.
5) Cook milk and meat uncovered in the same oven, just not simultaneously.
In all honesty, it never even occurred to me that that might be a kashrut issue. (I'm still in the "sh'eino yodeiah lish'ol" stage--too often, I don't even know that there's a question that I need to ask.) You mean that if I defrost cheese blintzes uncovered in the oven, then use the oven to heat up some chicken, uncovered, for another meal, that's a problem?
6) Have never toiveled anything.
That's us.
(They are elderly FFBs who regard toiveling as part of the new culture of chumrah. Things might be different for new BTs.)
Honestly, if anyone could make a good case that tevilat keilim is a chumrah (stringency) rather than a halachah (law), I'd love that!
Honestly, if anyone could make a good case that tevilat keilim is a chumrah (stringency) rather than a halachah (law), I'd love that!
No one can. They just live the mimetic Judaism so beloved of Rabbi Haym Soloveitchi (of Rupture and Reconstruction fame).
You are not (presently) orthodox. Based on your own statements, you will never be orthodox. So, why all the hand-wringing over this? You are going to join an orthodox shul of some flavor. You're not changing your denominational affiliation because you don't have one. Shuls do, people don't. You presently attend an conservative congregation, which you find unsatisfactory. We know there are conservative congregations you would find satisfactory, but they are unlikely to be in the neighborhood in which you are likely to end up.
I know plenty of folks who, for all sorts of reasons, have joined orthodox shuls, but are not orthodox. Some may appear to be outwardly orthoprax, but would likely not withstand such scrutiny. Nonetheless, they are very nice people, good people, and caring, committed jews.
TOTJ Steve, we would certainly be Orthoprax, rather than Orthodox, were we to change our affiliation from an Conservative synagogue to an Orthodox one. But we do have other options: There is actually one egalitarian Conservative synagogue and one egalitarian independent minyan in the neighborhood to which we're considering moving. We hope to spend Shabbatot praying with each of those groups, plus a Shabbat praying at the other Modern Orthodox synagogue, before making any decisions.
You don't have to make a decision for good and all, you know. If each of the 3 options in your proposed new community are of interest, you can spend time at each of them even after moving. There is still some overlap in membership between the most MO and the C shul here in town, though not as much as there was.
Larry, you have the good fortune to live in Highland Park, New Jersey. The delightful thing about Highland Park is that Ahavas Achim (the Ashkenazi Modern Orthodox shul), Etz Haim (the Sefardi Modern Orthodox synagogue), and the Highland Park Conservative Synagogue are all within something like five blocks of one another. Unfortunately for us, professional and family obligations would make it difficult for us to move to HP.
The synagogues in the neighborhood to which we're considering moving are much more spread out. We haven't figured how the exact distances yet, but our impression is that the Conservative synagogue may be as many as 20 blocks away from the Modern Orthodox shul that we visited. Right now, the walk probably wouldn't be a problem. But we're not getting any younger, and don't plan on moving voluntarily again--our next move will be into a nursing home. So it really is important for us to pick a synagogue and an apartment that are only roughly a five-minute walk from one another.
"5) Cook milk and meat uncovered in the same oven, just not simultaneously."
Moshe Feinstein ruled that if the heating element is on top, the issue of meat/dairy steam goes away... this idea of using a dedicated meat/dairy oven is mostly a function of Hassidim using toaster ovens for dairy, since Cholov Yisrael people don't really eat any dairy anyway, and everyone redoing their kitchens and putting dual ovens in and feeling frummer than thou...
"That's one of our important issues. Can we discuss our beliefs openly--in as respectful a manner as possible--and not be deemed outside the pale of the Orthodox community?"
With friends, sure, with people you don't know, maybe, maybe not.
There is a good chunk of the US Population that, upon hearing my beliefs, would tell me that I'm going straight to hell for not accepting Christ... I generally don't discuss theology/religion with people I don't know.
Beliefs = religion
Halacha/Practices = smalltalk
Remember that, and you'll be fine in any denomination.
Hmm, need to check (a) big mouth and (b) location of heating element in oven. Easier to check the oven. :) Thanks for the tip(s), Miami Al.
My go to article for the topic is Cooking Meat and Milk in the same oven by Rabbi Howard Jachter. This lists the 5 major positions on this topic.
We have a ventilated element, with heating elements on top, and let it cool down between uses. I'm guessing that we generally wait 24 hours between swapping uses, but a few hours to cool down is fine with us.
We're within an acceptable behavior, so I'm good... in fact, we're pretty open about the fact that we don't use separate ovens and we find it silly, and nobody seems to care.
I'm sure there are plenty of Jews that won't eat in my home... but since none of them are my friends, I don't really care... there are a few possible people in our extended social circle that might not eat in my house and are polite about it, but I really don't care... plenty of friends, and we can eat elsewhere.
Miami Al, it's a no-go--the heat in our oven comes from the broiler underneath. :(
Larry, thanks for the link. Waiting 24 hours between using the oven for meat and using it for dairy sounds reasonable, though it may complicate our cooking on Yom Tov, when we're allowed to use a gas oven but not an electric microwave--we may have to chose in advance whether we're having meat or dairy, if the food(s) involved must be heated in an oven.
As for cleaning the oven between dairy and meat uses, forget it! I have yet to find an oven-cleaning spray that isn't toxic, and the only time I'll expose myself to that poison is before Pesach.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the meat/dairy oven thing only applied to cooking objects UNcovered in the oven. As a fairly proficient cook, I don't see this as really being a big problem. Cook meat (roast, broil, etc.) uncovered to your heart's content. Bake pareve. Reheat dairy covered.
I don't think it's that complicated.
We have a self cleaning oven, so the issue of toxic oven cleaner doesn't apply. If you ever shop for ovens, contact one of us for reams of good advice about what to look for.
Our local MO emeritus shul rabbi thought we were being overly strict in our insistence of self cleaning between meat and dairy use. What he would think of people who require two separate ovens is left as an exercise for the reader.
TOTJ Steve, that sounds reasonable. Thanks for the advice.
Larry, would that we had a self-cleaning oven. Since we hope to move in about two years, there's no point in us buying one now, and we'll probably move to a rental, so we'll get stuck with whatever comes with the apartment. I won't rent an apartment with an electric stove, though.
On second thought, TOTJ Steve, good luck trying to bake matzah pizza wrapped in aluminum foil.:( I think the rule of waiting 24 hours between meat and dairy may work better. Next time, I'll leaving the aluminum foil open.
Sorry, but there is absolutely no excuse, none whatsoever, to bake, cook or otherwise fabricate matzoh pizza which, at best, is an abomination.
Its Pesach. It lasts a mere eight days. And they you can have pizza again. I just don't understand this bizarre matzoh pizza thing people have.
That was me railing against matzoh pizza.
Steve, it sounds to me like she tried to make matzah pizza during the year. I make tortilla pizza myself, but if you like crisper crust I suppose you could use matzah. Does it make it better if you are cooking matzah pizza when it isn't pesach?
Our canonical 'the rabbi has never cooked' check is to ask him about cooking cheese lasgna in a meat oven. If he suggests double wrapping we never ask him a cooking related question again.
Relax, everybody--we just always end up with too much matzah and not enough ways to get rid of it, plus we had some marinara sauce leftover from eating ravioli. (Speaking of ravioli, does anyone know a good kosher brand? One brand we tried has not enough cheese, the other has too much pepper.)
"Our canonical 'the rabbi has never cooked' check is to ask him about cooking cheese lasgna in a meat oven. If he suggests double wrapping we never ask him a cooking related question again."
:) That "rabbi who has never cooked" must be my relative. :) Actually, my late mother had four kids, three of whom can cook. Guess who's the one who can't? Oy.
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